“I’m a supporter of gay rights. And not a closet supporter either. From the time I was a kid, I have never been able to understand attacks upon the gay community. There are so many qualities that make up a human being . . . by the time I get through with all the things that I really admire about people, what they do with their private parts is probably so low on the list that it is irrelevant.” ~Paul Newman
Over the past week this subject has been discussed, blogged, written about over and over, and I am amazed at how much hate and prejudice is still out there on this subject. Some of you might be offended by this post… and maybe I’ll lose a few readers too.. That’s OK, it’s your choice to make. I’d like to have a conversation about this, politely, and with respect for any other’s point of view. If you care to join, please leave your opinion on the matter in the comments section below, but I ask that you keep your comment respectful. No venom, please.
It is my belief that we don’t CHOOSE our sexuality, any more than we choose our gender when we are born. I think we are what we are. I gravitate towards men who know what they want out of life, show some compassion and have strong looking hands. I don’t have a choice, that’s what draws me, it is what it is. .
I’ve heard the argument that the BIBLE says same sex coupling is wrong… but who’s bible are we talking about… yours?… Your bible isn’t everyone’s bible….there are so many religions out there. They all believe they are THE religion. People are killing people in the name of their religion. Your beliefs are for you to celebrate and rightly so…but to impose it on others who don’t feel the same way, to view their religious or relationship beliefs as WRONG?… well… it’s not very… humane….and by ANY GOD.. the one thing we need more of on this planet is humanity. Somehow when discussing differences in religous views, that seems to get lost in the fray. How very ironic.
I’ve also heard the argument that gay people have a CHOICE, that they can choose not to engage in gay behavior..Well, gay relationships have been around for all of humanity, that’s in the history books too, although perhaps with some disquise. Homosexuality isn’t a new deviant behavior. If a person is naturally inclined toward a partner of the same sex, who are we to demand that they be something that they aren’t, just so you feel more comfortable with it. Is that fair in any sense of the word?
A blogger I respect tremendously states that it is scientifically proven that people are not born gay, that they have a choice. I’m sorry… I don’t see how that can even be possible…how can anyone prove that a person wasn’t born with a certain sexual preference? I spoke with a woman once who struggled for all of her young adult life to be STRAIGHT just so she wouldn’t disappoint her family. She was very unhappy, miserable in fact.. but tried to live her life so that her family would approve. Well, she found in her thirties that she couldn’t live the lie any longer, and has been in a very stable and happy relationship with another woman for many years. Her family did not disown her, infact they get along better now than they ever did, because there are no lies, no pretending between them. I knew two young men throughout gradeschool who were clearly gay from first grade on. Both are fine middle aged men in solid relationships who have done much for their community, for people in need, for animals in need. I don’t give a damn what they do in the bedroom.
As for Chic-Fil-*… Well, they have a right to freedom of speech. I’m not sure why Mr. Cath*’s statement has made such a big… statement. Maybe it was an advertising ploy. If so, it worked. They’ve gained many customers this week. And they’ve lost some too. Personally, I’m more concerned with the horrendous treatment of factory restaurant chickens than I am with their religious/relationship beliefs. *humane… there’s that word again.
A great post. I am fortunate to live in Canada where gay marriage is a constitutional right and equality is a given. I totally believe that sexual preference is innate and I am afraid that the only bias I seem to have is for those that do not accept freedom to choose partners, religion or speech. I am very intolerant of those than cannot accept gay rights. Any you may lose followers. I lost about 5 after posting about the rights of a gay couple in the US and frankly I was actually happy about that. It weeded out the people that I wouldn't likely be friends with in real life, let alone my blog life.
As for Chick F*, I've never been and now never will. I feel sorry for the employees and also the chickens.
yay, yay, and double yay. Just last night I went to bed in a dither, because of a comment on Facebook by a very ''religious" friend, who in reference to gays said that people don't choose to get cancer either, but they can treat it or not.
WTF??????
And another Facebook post with a picture of soldiers in uniform at Chic freaking Filet…..with comments about them being good Americans supporting the restaurant chain
It makes me crazy.
I'm with you, Karen…….in fact, my blog for today was going to the same subject.
It sickens me……..yes, let's talk about the POOR EFFING CHICKENS.
I never understood why people care what other people do in private.
THAT is what is SICK.
Very well written:-) Lack of humanity just boggles my mind
Amen Sister!
P.S. Never been to a Chic-Fil, probably never will be.
Great post Karen.
I did my masters thesis in neuropsychology looking at gender identity in the brain. There is plenty of scientific evidence in the brain that sexuality is not a choice. Great post Karen.
I couldn't agree more! I've said this before in a post, that I find it completely ironic that people will oooh and ahhh over a particular gay designer, adore their gay hairstylist, and frequent their gay florist but then condemn gays?!!! I hope that more people like Sally Ride will have the courage to come forward (long before they die) so that people will stop the religious rhetoric created to scare and ostracize some of the most talented, wonderful, and loving people on this planet, and that people will be allowed to marry whomever they want.
Kat
For me personally, I prefer kind, compassionate and caring individuals. Their sexual preferences makes no difference to me. As long as you're decent, I'm going to want to be your friend.
Bravo. Since I work in the theater, I was exposed to all sorts of people at a young age. Some of them were and are gay. As a teacher who taught in an undergraduate theater program (Boston University) where many of my students were coming to terms with their sexuality and confided in me about that very subject, I know only too well that one's sexual preferences are not a choice. And to say they are is, I'm going to say it, ignorant. It's willful ignorance.
And using the Bible to 'validate' that prejudice drives me nuts. The Bible can be conveniently cherry picked for any sort of intolerance and prejudice one might care to put out there.
Love is love. If we all lived our lives each and every day by the Golden Rule, none of this disgusting intolerance would exist.
xo
Claudia
Wow, Karen!!! Totally right on, and well said! I agree with every single word you wrote.
The fact of the matter is this: the only legal discrimination left in this country is the ability to discriminate against an individual based on their sexual identity. Period. It is illegal to treat a person differently based on gender, race, religion, disability, etc., but you CAN if you want to discriminate against gays. Makes me sick!
I like smart people, those who know who they are and who accept themselves. I also shy away from anyone who thinks that other people's business is THEIR business. There are too many private issues that have become public rallying points … and it's really none of our business.
Cher answered this question quite succintly when asked about her view on same-sex marriage. She said something like, "It's really none of my business." I love Cher!
I have my mom and dad to thank for not having a biased bone in my body towards anything….I never ever heard them say anything about anyone…always accepting..never judging. Show by example…not quoting the bible…I wish more "Christians" would do that…the world would be a better place.
Amen, Sista! I just dropped a blog I have read for several years. She was so far up on her soap box I am surprised she had oxygen to breath. And there is no room for discussion on her site..so she probably dropped me too 🙂
There are so many issues in the world that need our attention. I really thought that in 2012 we were past this. And Dan C.? I think it was nothing more than an advertising ploy!
I have never posted on a blog before.ever. But I feel compelled to comment. When I first found your blog and saw that you were involved in animal rescue, I was elated. I love your home (especially your kitchen)and the things that you write about. I didn't know your religious beliefs or your political views and I was fine with that.
Since we are sharing, I am a politically moderate conservative Christian with liberal views on certain topics. I am for small government except when it comes to animal welfare. The more laws on the books being enforced to protect animals used in food production and for pets, the better off the world will be.
Belief in the Bible is faith based. People are entitled to their own faith and beliefs and views. I can't explain my beliefs, I just know in my heart that I believe in God and His Word. You can't change people's hearts by verbally beating them up. This goes both ways.
For the other comments:
It is illogical for people to say " I can't tolerate people who have no tolerance." Something is wrong with this statement.
Dan Cathy can share his beliefs. His rise or fall shouldn't concern any of us. I am sure he is aware that it might affect his business. That is his choice. It is the same with Starbucks or JCPenney. They fund and support gay rights. That is their choice to do so. If people feel that strongly about it, don't shop there. End of story.
How someone became gay is really none of our business. They are gay now. So what.
We all just need to leave people alone to their own political views, religious beliefs and sexual preferences. We are not going to get everyone to agree with us. People spend too much time trying to change the way the other one thinks. That will never happen. ever. Maybe being a positive representation of our beliefs is louder than name calling.
People will tune out insults and demonizing. If you really think you can convert people, try a different route. This goes for all sides of an issue.
All of the time, passion and egergy used to bash our fellow human beings and trying to get them to think the way we do on things that are none of our business, could be much better spent on saving animals.
I'm just sayin'
To Anonymous,
Although I see your point regarding leaving people alone to their sexual beleifs, religion etc, it seems wrong to sit back and watch those whose beleive in hatred and intolerance towards gays and minorities continue to spread their intolerance. Imagine what would have happened in the past 100 yrs in history if we just beleived what we beleived and left others to believe in hatred, segregation etc. I think we have a responsibility to stand up for what we beleive in when it comes to accepting one another..
YES! I absolutely agree, Karen! Well said! And Paul Newman? LOVE him! There are people who feel that we should have smaller govt. and yet they also feel that that small govt should be in the bedroom!!?? I just don't understand. One of my sisters is gay and has been in a stable relationship for years…how is that hurting anyone?????
I never understood why people insist others believe exactly as they do. And if others do not practice what they preach, they attempt to force 'others' to act the way they want them to – passing restrictive laws, discriminating, constantly on their soapbox.
i wholeheartedly agree. an open mind and an open heart is something we should all strive for.
Thank you Karen for an excellent blog, and wonderful comments from your readers. I look forward to coming back soon.
As a gay man in a long term relationship of 15 years, I can say without a doubt, that being gay is not a "choice"! Why in the heck would someone "choose" to be gay and face the hatred and discrimination…. makes no sense! We both are very fortunate to having supportive and loving families.
I certainly support Chic-Fil-A's right to their belief system, and I also have that same right/ability to take my money elsewhere for lunch! Our country is about freedom and individual responsibility, not monitoring what other people are doing in the bedroom!
Amen! I feel the same way, but you said it SO MUCH BETTER than I ever could.
Absolutely agree, one hundred percent, with both you and Mr. Newman.
Yes I believe that being gay is not a choice but the way a person is born. Yes I believe that people have the right to follow their religious beliefs. and YES I also believe that the Constitution gives us all the FREEDOM to state our beliefs! While I don't happen to have a Chick-Filet nearby I would have been one of the ones there yesterday NOT because of the statement about gays being what I believe BUT to defend Mr C's RIGHT to voice his views. I amazes me that people today just vilify those whose beliefs are 'different' from theirs. And for some reason 'they' are the ones who always say that others are 'intolerant'!
Thank you for such a reasoned post!
One of my sons is gay. Believe me, it wasn't his choice. I remember from a time when he was very very young that I began to wonder. Scientifically proven that it was a choice? Then the science is incorrect. I believe that it is not something you can choose. And I also think that Paul Newman got it right. What they do with the private parts is so low on the list that it's irrelevant.
And I am a chick fil-a quitter. Yes, they have a right to freedom of speech. And I have a right not to eat at their establishment anymore because what they think disgusts me.
I agree with this post 100 percent.
I agree with this post 100 percent.
bravo karen….
i have gay friends and my heart breaks every time something negative is said about them.
gay people are just like the rest of us. period.
my sister is very religious and doesn't believe in gay marriage or anything gay for that matter. it saddens me deeply.
and why does everyone have to think about "sex" when they think about someone being gay. sheesh. look at all the other millions of things they do besides have sex. like adopt unwanted children for one thing !!!!!!
again bravo to you !!!
Lots of emoting going on here…..that someone has an opinion other than your own doesn't equate to hate speech nor does it indicate intolerance. Reliance on the term hate speech is code for sloppy thinking. The man never said he hated gays he said he was in support of traditional marriage. That someone supports traditional marriage is hate speech? It amazes me how easily people are led. Reminds me that the term extremist is now lodged against those who are against partial birth abortions. I would caution those here to seriously consider reading comprehension exercises and stop thinking so much like a emotional female. So unproductive. And by the way, not all gays want same sex marriage legalized. Heretical thinking? Broaden your parochial horizons.
I have really enjoyed your blog. I was sad to read this post. I plan to continue as a reader because I can accept that we have different points of view.
Supporting the Biblical belief in traditional marriage is not hate. I believe that God loves us all. I believe that sin is rampant in our world and we all have free will. We are all born sinners. I do not hate gay people, just as I don't hate a friend who struggles with gossip or a child who lies. God's word calls homosexuality an abomination.
I know people who have come out of this lifestyle and have chosen to live differently. Is it a struggle? Yes! To quote one young man, "If this was God's plan for me then He would have made it clear, I would have been able to have children with my chosen partner and I wouldn't have lived with personal guilt and self-loathing. Now I have freedom that I never felt before. I do struggle from time to time with thoughts and inclinations but more and more I feel free."
It doesn't really matter what I think about it, as long as I treat people with respect and love them where they are on this journey. This should go both ways. I have seen some very hateful things posted towards Christians the last few days. There are people who identify themselves as Christians being very unloving. That is wrong. I do not support hate. Please do not promote the idea that disagreement is hate. If you do then you are contributing to a very hostile environment. It is very hard to listen to the very people who are calling for tolerance being so intolerant.
I don't have all of the answers and I don't need to. I have faith in God and know that all will be revealed in heaven. The best thing I can do is pray for all of us.
Thanks for sharing and the opportunity to respond. -Trisha
Anonymous (Trisha) Not sure why you are sad about this post, is it because I recognize that gay people are just PEOPLE that deserve respect, just as you and I do?
What saddens me is that you refer to being gay as a sin, comparing it to gossip and lies.
I don't think anyone is implying hate here, nor has anyone promoted hate on this blog.
If you believe in God, I ask you this… why would God call one of his creations an abomination?
Not tolerating intolerance is necessary, Trisha. If we didn't stand up to it, think of some of the major history in this world and where we would be if we didn't take a stand. A certain fellow in Germany comes to mind. How about slavery?
I do thank you for giving your opinion here, you do respresent the beliefs of many. I had hoped this conversation would give us all a little more insight and I believe it has.
My oldest daughter has a thread on her Facebook page debating this. I'm so proud of her I could bust. She is eloquent and factual in her debating rather than emotional. Such a smart girl!
She and I are volunteering at mnunited.org. I proudly wear a button that states "Ask Me Why I'm Voting No." No to the constitutional amendment that would make marriage strictly between a man and a woman. We are canvasing areas to get people to just think a little differently about this issue and keep the discussion open.
I've asked myself over and over why this is even an issue. Why we have to have these conversations. Why isn't it a given that everyone have the right to marry?
I have an 85 year-old aunt that is a lesbian. She was in a committed, loving relationship for over 50 years. Her partner passed away last year and it broke my heart to know that she was not considered "family."
Shame on us if we don't see this issue clearly.
Bravo! and smooches
To Kay: Saying one supports traditional marriage is one thing. Actively giving money to those who will do all they can to strip some of our citizens of their civil rights is another. Then it's time to act. Sorry. Speech and actions that discriminate against others are wrong. And if one, like the owner of Chick-Fil-A espouses this opinion publicly (which I'm pretty sure he did to get publicity) then that person has to be prepared for the consequences. He has a right to his intolerance. I have a right not to frequent his business and to do everything I can to fight such intolerance. And I will.
You call this emoting. I simply call it doing the right thing. I can't imagine not being emotional about it.
Kay, your remarks are offensive and rude…you go beyond stating your ideas on the subject and roll right into insulting others, including women in general, do YOU comprehend? I'm leaving your comment up because you are a good example of part of the problem.
See? This is one of the things I really like about you, Karen. You speak your mind, and allow others to speak theirs if they choose to. 🙂
Amen . . . well said, and so true.
Hi,
I'm blog hopping this evening and came across this.
This is a very well written post and I enjoyed reading it. There are so many other issues that people should be focusing on than this issue. Good grief!
I do get so tired of people using religion (more specifically the Bible) to justify a particular way of thinking. Everybody believes their religion is the 'right' one. I am no longer in touch with my oldest friend because she chose to berate me because I asked her to stop forwarding me religious e-mails.
I live by the Golden Rule and agree that if we all did, the world would be so much more peaceful.
I've known and been friends with several gay people. Gay doesn't define them…they are just good people who happen to have a different sexual orientation than me. So what?!
Very civil debate about a vey hot topic. Here's my two cents. As a society we have the right to stand up to injustice and say no to discrimination and exclusion. There's a difference between discrimination and expressing ones opinion about about civil rights. What does it say about us a society if we deny a segment of our population the right to have the same privilege as others. All people have the right to the same privileges and/or rights, whether that is the pursuit of happiness, the right to practice their own religious rituals, or to marry who ever they love. I find it contradictory that some say gay marriage will undermine the institution of marriage. I don't think that's possible. Heterosexual couples to a very good job at it with their divorce rate and other such nonsense. I know many families headed by same sex households and there is nothing deviant about them. These families are as normal, if not more, than any hetero family. The children in these families are compassionate and so level headed and no the children from the families I know are not gay. But what impresses me about these children, or teenagers, is that they have a much more deeper understanding of tolerance and compassion than most teens. I believe we all have the right to express our thoughts and feelings about any topic, and that goes for Mr Cathy, but I don't think we as a society, or even our government, has the right to withhold a privilege, discriminate, or exclude a segment of our society from engaging in a ritual that many of us get to enjoy and that is marrying the person you love.
Donna.
Very well said, Donna, thank you!
Reading these 38 comments was a really good read. Very interesting how some get "fired up" because of the word gay. I honestly don't get it.
I would like to thank "Kay" ( if that's your real name) for your literary suggestion…but it seems I forgot what you were talking about.
And Karen, maybe your next hot topic should touch on the fact that a member of the girls USA gymnastics team that won gold is black. That thought never occurred to me until I read those words in an article.
We live in a great nation, but we have sooo far to go.
This post of yours, just awesome.
Well, I’ve been called much worse than rude. I’m not offended nor are my feelings hurt. Reading these posts is like being dropped into a group sing of MacArthur’s Park. You’ve all made my point. Your emotions lead you to wherever the media want you to go. Oh, look, a shiny object and it’s off to the races with all of you. Dear Antoine Dodson said it so simply, don’t go to Chick-fil-A if you disagree. And now I will ask the tough questions. If Mr. CFA is so hateful, what was President Obama 6 months ago? Was President Obama also hateful? And here’s the real toughie, hang on, are all of you truly concerned with gays? Really? If you are so concerned about gays and their well being does the exploding HIV rate in the African-American community give you pause at all? And why is that population the leading stat for new HIV cases? Well, could it be the homophobic African-American culture? Did I just touch on a verboten topic? Of course it is much easier to be outraged that white upper middle class gays can’t march down to EVERY church of their choice and demand to be wedded in holy matrimony. Because anything less than that is a human rights violation. Right. That gays are rounded up and executed in the Middle East is no cause for concern. Where’s the kiss-in at the local mosque? Well that won’t happen because all of you know that to hurl invectives at anyone who espouses Christian beliefs is a safe haven. Nothing will happen to you or your family. Try that same stunt at a mosque and things may not turn out so neat and tidy.
Here’s the irony, if you met me at a party you would adore me, I’m very funny, very smart, very caring given all my volunteer work and quite interesting. I am a throwback to the classic liberal and sadly an uber endangered species these days.
How very sad it is that discourse no longer exists.
Oh Kay, if you have to TELL people they would adore you if they met you at a party… how very sad indeed.
Perhaps a group sing of MacCarthers park would do you good.
I Don't disagree with everything you are concerned about… but I asked that if readers were to join the discussion, to leave venom out of it. Either you're not capable, or you have no respect for another persons space.
It's not my job to judge. I have friends and relatives that are gay. They are wonderful people. I love them dearly.